Funny you mention this David, I was only the other day reading an old conversation that you and I had about this kind of subject.

I'm no church authority, but I think that the practice of shunning the inconvenient, embarrassing, and 'unholy' is the single biggest thing that really repels me from organized religion. I know it's not really what you are referring to here, but the thought that any number of people can consider themselves more worthy or better than anyone else to stand in 'Gods house' (and even that notion seems questionable to me when I stand in the open valleys of the Welsh mountains) is utterly deplorable. In fact it makes me angry and perversely drives me to be judgmental myself - then I have to kick myself!

At the moment I find myself standing on peripheries of religion like a young boy on the banks of a vast lake throwing stones in the water to watch the ripples. I can swim but the water is simply to damn cold, murky, and uninviting for me to want to jump in. Then I recall the times I've dared to swim in that mire and the times I've been asked to get out! It seems ironic to me that only holy people seem good enough to swim in that shitty water, but there ya go.

I guess that last paragraph had nothing to with anything. I'd delete it but like I said, I'm just throwing stones. Hope that's okay with you.

Only one observation...no one is holy, only all are called to it. The commandments of scripture have been confused as "THE RULES", but one must reread those as instructions being from a loving father to children he loves, and doesn't want to see them hurt, only desiring their best. Actually, it says just that in the scriptures "...that it might go well with you." This is the heart behind all the admonitions of the bible. Has the Church presented it so; ummmm, not so much. Oops, there's that pesky imperfect, unholy thing again.

striving for holiness vs striving for self-gratification

Sometimes it looks the same from the outside, and both are messy. That's why God only judges our motivations rather than our actions. The implications are huge.

I should have put flying apostrophes around the word 'holy.'

I'm not talking to you right now ....

Interesting how things strike people differently, depending on how they are wired and what state they find themselves in.  While I understand the sentiment of the song and I appreciate being informed about a historical fact that I didn't know anything about, the important thing to me here is that it's a song by Joni Mitchell.  I first heard Joni on the Woodstock album.  She's still around.  I went on you tube and listened to her explain the song and sing it. 

Anyway that's what I'm into, songs themselves as a work of artistry.  I'm going to try to keep something like this going by posting some of the songs that I dig and by encouraging discussion and the posting of songs that others love.

That breaks my heart.... I've never heard some of those stories.